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KP Unpacked
KP Unpacked explores the biggest ideas in AEC, AI, and innovation—unpacking the trends, technology, discussions, and strategies shaping the built environment and beyond.
KP Unpacked
AI Won’t Replace Architects—Yet
Jeff is joined by architect and digital innovator Zig Rubel, FAIA, to unpack one of KP’s latest thought-provoking LinkedIn posts: "I'm not an architect, but why did they lose the master builder position and why have they never taken it back?"
With KP out of the hot seat, Jeff and Zig dive deep into the historical and evolving role of architects, questioning whether the concept of "master builder" was ever truly theirs to lose—or whether the profession has a greater opportunity ahead. They explore how architects can redefine their influence in the built environment, leveraging technology, AI, and data-driven insights to regain relevance in a rapidly changing industry.
Key takeaways include:
- Why the traditional "master builder" narrative might be outdated.
- How AI and emerging technology could reshape the architect’s role.
- Whether architects should embrace a new identity as the data-driven stewards of the built environment.
- The balance between risk, liability, and innovation in today’s architectural practice.
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Hey, welcome back to KP Unpacked. Now. If you've been following along, maybe via audio, or maybe you check it out on YouTube you see the video clips on LinkedIn or somewhere like that. This episode is going to look a little bit different than others that you've seen. We're rolling out another version of KP Unpacked.
Speaker 1:These days Normally I'm joined by KP Ready, the CEO and founder of Shadow Ventures and of KP Ready Company, and the shtick is right. The format is that we take one of KP's LinkedIn posts and we unpack it. It's my opportunity every week to say hey, KP, what were you thinking when you wrote that? That's a little bit of tongue in cheek, but it's my opportunity to ask KP what the inspiration was behind what he posted on LinkedIn. If you're not following KP on LinkedIn, you need to be. Just go to KP ready R-E-D-D-Y. Find him on LinkedIn. He posts several times a day, usually A lot of great insights from around the AEC industry, the architecture, engineering and construction industry.
Speaker 1:A lot of insights around investing. A lot of insights around startups and innovation for the built environment. Many of those are insights that you won't hear anywhere else. Many of those are meant to be pot stirring insights. They might be a little bit binary.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask today's guest about that, maybe a little bit here, and, as I alluded to, I am joined by someone today other than KP Ready. My name is Jeff Eccles. I'm a senior advisor at KP Ready than KP Ready. My name is Jeff Eccles, I'm a senior advisor at KP Ready Company and I host our podcasts and our live and virtual events and, again, this is my opportunity to unpack KP's brain. Today I am joined by Zig Rubel, FAIA.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know if Zig's going to kind of chuckle at that, because we talked about this in the background, but one of the things that I'm really looking forward to about this conversation that we're about to have is that Zig still practices architecture. My background is architecture and KP's post that we're going to talk about starts with. I'm not an architect, so KP's not here in the room to defend himself. Zig and I are going to go at it about KP's post, but I think it's a really good topic that deserves to be unpacked and it's something that is historically discussed throughout, not only academia, but throughout the profession. So I'm looking forward to getting into this conversation with Zig. Zig, welcome, I'm glad you're joining me here today and we'll see where this conversation goes.
Speaker 1:Great Thanks for having me, Jeff. Absolutely so. You are the co-founder and the CEO of Foresight Digital. You're also still practicing as an architect, and I mentioned at the beginning that you are FAIA, which is you're a fellow of the American Institute of Architects. So why don't we just real briefly, for anybody that doesn't understand what that means what is someone that carries those letters after their name? What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Sure, what does that mean? Sure, so if someone is quote unquote, checking me after this is made, I have to put my disclaimer. But AIA stands for the American Institute of Architects, and not everyone knows this. But architects are licensed by the state and not everyone who is a licensed architect joins the AIA. So about half architects are not AIA members and the other half are AIA members.
Speaker 2:And the F per se stands for fellowship and what it essentially connotates is that it's a AIA member who has practiced as an AIA member for at least 10 years or more and has given back and made a contribution with what they call the ripple effect. You haven't just practiced in the Bay Area, where I live now in San Francisco, but there has been somewhat of a national impact based on the area of what the AIA calls of elevation. So the first fellowship area is design practice, which is what I was elevated in and now I'll probably get a little bit wobbly, but contribution to the AIA organization, volunteering and other teaching, I think, is now one. So if you've made an impact in the profession, then you get elevated. And again, don't quote me on this, but I think only two or 3% of AIA members are fellows.
Speaker 1:I think that's. I think that is pretty accurate and thank you for unpacking that because I think that I think that sets up the framing of this conversation pretty well. You were elevated because of the area of practice. Right, you're still practicing. My background is architecture.
Speaker 1:I haven't worked in an architecture or AE firm for quite a few years now, but I still teach pro practice. An architecture or AE firm for quite a few years now, but I still teach pro practice. So both of us have a point of view and historical knowledge about this idea of of the architect is master builder. So that that's that's maybe a little bit of framework around us unpacking this post that KP wrote on LinkedIn. So I'm going to read the post, we can, and then we can talk about it. And if you're, if you're following along at home, maybe you're listening to this in the year 2027, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Um, if you, if you want to find this post, look back to uh, looks like about january 27th 2025, and you can find this post and post on KP's profile. But it goes like this I'm not an architect, but why did they lose the master builder position and why have they never taken it back? That, for those that are keeping statistics, that is, in fact, one of KP's shortest LinkedIn posts ever. But just one sentence, one question why did architects lose the position of master builder and why have they not taken it back? Now, there's a lot. It seems short, but I think there's a lot to unpack there, so where should we start this conversation?
Speaker 2:So since we're both from the architectural kind of birthplace, I would ask you did architects ever have the position of master builder?
Speaker 1:Not in the memory of anybody that is an architect right now.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we need to speak to Mr KP about that. However, I would agree with you. I don't know if it was ours to lose, but certainly ours to gain is the way I would characterize it. And when? So when, when I was asked to maybe be on this unpacking, I went to go see, well, what is a master builder? I mean, what does Merriam-Webster say is a master builder?
Speaker 2:Because KP's opinion of what a master builder is is different than probably what your or I definition is. And according to Merriam-Webster's definition, and according to Merriam-Webster's definition, it's someone who is skilled in the craft of building, right, right. So I think you and I were trained in the craft of building, but are we quote unquote skilled and gifted in it? And I would say absolutely not. Right, and I would say absolutely not. I do play weekend warrior on my house doing home repair, but I would never take it outside of my house because I wouldn't want to be laughed at, so to speak, and in quote unquote putting a building together. So I'm not sure if the quote unquote architectural aspiration comes with wanting to be a builder as opposed to wanting to be someone who effectuates and inspires building as a way I would. I would characterize it. How do you feel?
Speaker 1:Well, I think I agree with that and it's um, I'm like you, I've I worked a lot of construction jobs through, through high school and, cop, excuse me, through high school and college, but still, right, not a builder. Right, I'm right, I'm not skilled in that. I do think that there are plenty of people inside the profession and, you know, maybe this is part of KP's point as well but there are plenty of people inside the profession that bemoan the fact that the profession has let go of some of the autonomy and responsibilities of the position of architect, and I think that there are some that are still working somewhere in the realm of what a lot of people are thinking about in terms of master builder. They're doing architect as developer, they're doing things like construction management, other things where they they. Maybe they have a broader scope than you know.
Speaker 1:We've got to put this in quotes, definitely, but just designing. But I think, I think, when I hear people bemoaning the fact that architects lost the, the master builder position is, as KP said, I think they're, I think today they're talking about losing certain decision-making, certain what's there's I'm struggling to find a word, I'm struggling to find a word the decision-making, the ability to control certain things that maybe contractors are controlling today, but I think a lot of that goes back to our fear of risk. Yeah, I think a lot of that goes back to the risk managers.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about that for a second. So the word I would use is gravitas. Okay, has the architect lost their gravitas on certain decision making? And I would say absolutely not. My area of practice is healthcare, and probably not the most complicated building type, but it's certainly a complicated building type.
Speaker 2:Very complicated and I wouldn't say that my area of influence as an architect has been contained, been contained.
Speaker 2:However, I would say that I know my swimline and I know where I can add value With that when I saw the question. There are a lot of architects that are master builders for, let's say, homes. There are a lot of people that's a one-stop shop that design and build a home, and you probably know that almost every state in the land you don't need a licensed architect for a residential building that's two stories or less and is four units or less, building that's two stories or less and is four units or less, and that's how most builders operate building homes. But for the architects that are quote unquote both the architect and the builder it gives them a lot of autonomy to make all of those decisions. As the building gets more complex, most people realize that they need to partner and enlarge their tent, if you will, with knowledge and get more people into the tent. So then is the architect the master builder or the conductor of the orchestra, since we're using analogies?
Speaker 1:Sure, absolutely. I know one of the things that KP talks about quite a bit is the role of specialization. Right, the healthcare, healthcare design is a is a great, a great example, right? I mean, I I would say that most, most owners of healthcare systems are not turning to residential, residential architects or architects, who are sort of general practitioners, to design their healthcare facilities, whether it's a hospital or any other variety of healthcare. They're going to specialists or firms that specialize in healthcare design.
Speaker 1:One of the things that KP will talk about is that he thinks that as technologies advance you know the use of AI, et cetera that it's easier to capture specialization that you don't have. Essentially, I think that's accurate. Hey, I can use AI to close that specialization gap. And I wonder because I think that's part of what he's poking at here in his question Is there some sort of scenario where an architect or an engineer or a contractor or whomever is able to to rein in things are?
Speaker 1:Things are fairly siloed these days. We've got an architect, we've got a mechanical engineer, we've got a structural engineer, we've got a construction manager, we've got an owner's rep, we've got the, the gc. You know there are silos and swim lanes, as you said earlier, I wonder if part of his thinking as well, with the technologies that we're developing, the technologies that we have at hand, is it easier to rein in some of these specializations and remove some of the silos, or maybe even gather up some of the silos? I'm going to wrap my arms around these six silos that I didn't used to be able to to get into, and now, with the use of technology, does that? Does that give me a way to expand my, my scope?
Speaker 2:So that that that's a far reaching question. That's a far reaching question. This is how I would respond to it. So a lot of people believe AI is going to be doing everything and in some respects, theoretically, they're correct, and I might have been. Six or eight months ago, I went to the California Architects Board saying that the Architects Board needs to take a position on technology and architecture because ultimately, it's that body, the licensing board, that's protecting the health, safety and welfare of buildings. And I ended the talk by saying, while AI is not going away, ai still needs adult supervision, right provision. And that's kind of where I want to tie it back to your question, which is AI will do all of these amazing things and have all of this knowledge. However, ai is not going to be able to determine what the best pattern match is for the solution, given the situation. Right that?
Speaker 2:that has to be a human now. Can the architect or some other professional be that decision maker possibly, but I think that's really going to get tied to the human and not necessarily the profession do.
Speaker 1:Do you think you know, as we look again, a lot of silos right as we look into the future and AI is the elephant in the room. But as we look into the future, do you see a scenario where because I think there are a lot of people that that look at AI from a from a point of view of fear and say, oh, ai is going to do everything, ai is going to eliminate architects, ai is going to take my job, whatever version of fear-based statement they have. But as we look out into the future, with the development of these technologies, do you see a scenario where some of those silos could be broken down, that professionals, architects and others could utilize the technology to expand the scope of their services?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. In a former life I had a saying tools for the mundane, the mind for creativity. So AI is going to focus on the mundane knowledge that every professional needs. I think we're still a ways away for technology to be what some people are calling general artificial intelligence or thinking about problems creatively. I think that's still currently in the human realm and probably will be I'm hoping forever, and I think that is where I'm focused on, and I don't think architects or builders or engineers are ever going to go away but we have to become more efficient and more valuable in how we contribute to the built environment.
Speaker 1:One of the things that comes up and I've been reading through some of the comments on KP's post here and I mentioned it earlier.
Speaker 1:It's come up in some of these comments, but, um, there are a lot of people that that talk about the sort of the shrinking of the scope of of what an architect does, what an architect's responsible for, what an architect should do, etc. Um, they blame on risk, risk management, fear of liability, et cetera. Do you think and if anybody missed this at the beginning of our conversation here, zig is not only a practicing architect, but he's the CEO and co-founder of Foresight Digital, so maybe you're straddling the fence. I don't know how you describe that or how you think about it, but you have a little bit of a unique perspective in this realm. Do you see a scenario where, again, it's AI or whatever the emerging technologies are that we're talking about? Emerging technologies are that we're talking about. Do you see a scenario where some of those tools will reduce the liability or somehow, maybe not even reduce, but somehow affect the way that we think about liability in the work that we're doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. So you can look at it in two different extremes, right? One extreme is where there's a software solution that can check for every possible configuration outcome of a design and building. Is the designer or builder at fault, or is the AI code writer at fault? So that's one extreme. The other extreme, and what makes me excited to do what I'm doing, which is AI, allows me to focus on different problems. So I often say that I've never worked on a healthcare project that we weren't remodeling before it was open, and it's probably because healthcare buildings are figure out where that needle is going so that buildings could be more resilient and change over time as healthcare needs are going. So I would rather work with a technology that could help me as opposed to knowing that I'm right in what I've done, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so we opened with the definition that you shared from Merriam-Webster Right, so does. Based on what you just said, I mean, have we come full circle now, right, what you're talking about? And and have having the having the knowledge that what you've done is right and um, you, you know, I, I think you know some of the things that I've run down in my mind are things like code review, um, permitting, you know there's, there's all kinds of. You mentioned the mundane. You know I remember the days of doing code checks and code reviews on our projects and submissions, for here in Indiana would be at the state and permitting at the local jurisdiction. But all of that mundane.
Speaker 2:Jeff, you're old enough to remember stippling concrete on details.
Speaker 1:KP likes to point out that I'm the oldest guy in the room. Maybe I still am the oldest guy in the room. Yes, I am old enough to remember using a pencil to draw with the tools that we have at hand now maybe not pencils, but AI, et cetera Do they, coming back to the Merriam-Webster definition, do they allow us to have better knowledge? You mentioned resilience a minute ago, which is a huge and it's going to be a bigger topic, I believe. With hurricanes flooding Asheville, north Carolina, the state of California on fire, we're past the tipping point. Is the use of these tools that we're talking about going to make us more knowledgeable, more valuable in understanding how buildings are built, how they should be built, how to respond? Lord knows, building codes are going to change. After the last 12 months of climate disasters yeah, of climate disasters, yeah. What impact is AI or any technology going to have in terms of architects changing the way that they learn, they operate, they check, they maybe attempt to take over more scope?
Speaker 2:Yes, I want to give you two different answers. One is so we're absolutely, absolutely going to be solving different sets of problems, right? So one of the one of the outcomes from hurricane Katrina which, mind you, was a while ago that came into healthcare was that there was a hospital that was without power for three days. So not many people know this, but in California, hospitals need to be completely off the grid for three days. So they need to not only have generator fuel for three days, but they need to have potable water stored up and the ability to have non-potable water discharged into tanks for three days, because no one knows when a bridge or road's going to be out for three days. So now, because of that, it's now four days.
Speaker 2:So, getting back to these horrible fires and other events that have happened, there are going to be more requirements that are going to be put on buildings. I don't know if you saw in the news, but there have been a couple of homes that were built very resiliently, with materials and deeper walls and other well-designed solutions. And then the question now is will resilient home designs become more of a requirement or more of a nice to have outcome from these climate disasters? I don't know, because I wanted to touch on the other thing about AI. So a lot of the comments had to do with reducing risk knowledge.
Speaker 2:I thought the one that was pretty funny was well, when architects were master builders, there were a lot more deaths in buildings, and now that architects aren't doing, there's less deaths, which I know they were probably being tongue in cheek, but I thought that one was pretty funny. But the other factor is price. Owners want to spend as little as possible as they can for designing their facility, and one of the projects in my career was working on well, sprint doesn't exist anymore, but Sprint's World Headquarters, which was designed and built in Overland Park, kansas, and the owner's position was you guys are designing and building 4 million square feet. It's fairly repetitive. I'm not giving you your standard 10% fee or whatever it was at that time.
Speaker 2:They wanted to drive the price down. So unfortunately for architects, architects are going to have to address the client's wish to be competitive and differentiate, but at the same time they don't want the quality to go down with a lower price, and I think AI is going to facilitate having the quality go up and the costs go down in that process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we hosted an event in Miami towards the end of last year. It was called an executive briefing. We'll have more of those executive briefings this year, and what you just said could have very nearly been a quote from an owner. So one of the things that was unique about the executive briefing was we had architects in the room, engineers in the room, contractors in the room, owners in the room. You know operators in the room, so you sort of had the circular economy, if you will.
Speaker 2:Sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was everybody. And one of the speakers from the underside said almost the same thing that you just said. Right, telling me that you're using AI tools is not a value proposition, right, this is what we expect. We expect that you're using the best tools. We expect that you're using the best tools. We expect that you're using the best technology that you can get your hands on to do this. We're not going to pay you more because you have this. We do expect it to be delivered faster, cheaper, you know, et cetera.
Speaker 1:But at the same time and this was the, you know, this is from the owner's owner's mouth's mouth we want you to make money. Right, we need you to make money. We need you to have a healthy business, because we need you to stay in business, to be able to continue to serve us. So you better figure it out. Was part of the message there. Right, we've been talking about this post.
Speaker 1:Obviously, on KP Reddy's LinkedIn profile, he says I'm not an architect, but why did they lose the master builder position? Why have they never taken it back? We probably have a little bit of disagreement with KP and what exactly master builder means, and Merriam-Webster certainly does. Right, there's no way you know, if we had KP in the room right now, he's going to go. No, that's not it. That's not what a master builder is and, to be fair, I think there are a number of folks around the profession who would also disagree with that.
Speaker 1:But, all of that being said, here we are. It's 2025, it's January, as we're barely as we're recording this, and we're hearing all kinds of news about AI, different AI, we're using AI and In my pro practice classes, different speakers have come in and talked a lot about how the profession has changed over the last hundred years or so. Is there anything that you see as we look out towards the future, with all the emerging technology ahead of us, the emerging technology ahead of us, is there anything that makes you think, or even wish, that we would go back and regain some of those things that we have quote unquote lost over the years?
Speaker 2:Yeah no that's.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad that you asked that question. So I struggle with the fact that all of us are living longer and we're designing buildings that are going to last more than a hundred years. So they're built today and they're going to be here in 2100 or maybe even 2200, but I definitely won't and I'm not planning on being around 2200. However, I'm going back to the architect's role and opportunity. I think our opportunity is creating a new value network with the data that the buildings create and giving life to what building data really means.
Speaker 2:So, jeff, not to kind of poo poo on our age, but you probably remember that architects used to keep all the drawings of the building in their offices and if the client wanted to make a renovation, they go to the architect and say, hey, we're thinking about blah, blah, blah, what do you think? And they go to their flat file, pull out the drawer and could provide value to what some of those business decisions need to be for the owner to decide. Oh yeah, maybe, maybe I can do that here, or maybe I need a whole new building, so forth and so on. So I think that is really the opportunity for quote-unquote building architects to become the master builder with data for the building lifecycle is how I would answer for the question.
Speaker 1:That I find super fascinating, right? Maybe, maybe you know tongue in cheek, maybe architect as librarian or architect as management consultant versus architect as developer right. But I think that's a really great point the amount of you know I don't know how many people I take this for granted, I don't know if you take it for granted but the amount of work and research and fact-finding and creativity and everything that goes into a project. You know we used to have binders right.
Speaker 1:Just the binders with all the spec sheets and all the cut sheets and materials and all the iterations of the schematic designs and feasibility studies, all of it. Right, we had. That was on paper, you know and to your point flat files. Here's a quick story. Point flat files. Here's a quick story. When I did my internship here in indianapolis, um, it was during the mike tyson trial. When mike tyson was on trial you can google it if you want to know more about it.
Speaker 1:But mike tyson was on trial. The jury was sequestered in the indianapolis athletic club, right downtown on meridian street. There was a fire that broke out in the indianapolis athletic club, an historic building right and pretty close to the center of downtown. The firm that I worked for was engaged to um to save and renovate and, you know, rebuild the uh the athletic club.
Speaker 1:I worked on that project. We had that. We had the linen drawings right and, for those of you out there that are using, using revit or some bim program, google drawings on linen so that you can understand what we're talking about here, but that somebody, right, somebody, had those in their archive, right In their flat files. They had those. We are right. We are so much more advanced than that. Now, all of the information, whether it's the environmental information, the operational information, materials, everything else. I do find that fascinating that if the architect is indeed the conductor of the orchestra, they could indeed be the librarian or the, you know whoever, whatever title, whatever title. We give that because that is valuable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:In in, yeah, in in in many project types.
Speaker 2:Maybe not all, but but many project types certainly I think, in all project types, because buildings as we know them are going to change. So we're seeing that we don't need as many garages, right? I mean as all of a building type as there is, and these garages are now becoming some are becoming office buildings, some might become homes, some might become I don't know something else, so every building could be quote, unquote, something else, and I think design professionals need to start thinking outside of the box, because we don't need so many buildings in the US. Elsewhere in the world, like Nigeria, where the population is just exploding, we need more buildings, but in the US we're really, population growth is largely becoming, we're all living longer and that which is a whole nother topic to unpack, but we'll just leave it at that.
Speaker 2:But I think that the term architect needs to encompass the life of the building and the master builder is an opportunity for a design professional to become that person and and regain that quote-unquote gravitas within the built environment okay.
Speaker 1:So I think that's where we've come to.
Speaker 1:We've got a new definition of what master builder may be as we look into the future, and and um, and new roles that architects could play, um in relation to, to, to not only that that term, um but in in the built environment, um, I, I like that. I like the fact that we can look at this in a way that says, hey, it may not be the design architect or the building architect in the way that we thought about it, but here's a new value proposition, here's a new way which, to me, as you're describing it, that feels right, it fits. This is what we do, this is what we know, this is what, this is how we can help. And, and I think it also fits really well with the idea of resiliency, right, this idea that we don't, we don't have to keep building Um, we should look at um, adaptability and resilience and and say you know, it was last night I was uh driving home from the gym that I go to, and there's this whole section of this, uh, this area that's that um was dark, right this?
Speaker 2:is not occupied.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, if we've got a housing crisis, there's a whole bunch of square footage that maybe we could do something with. That as just a really completely oversimplified example. But, but, um, but yeah the the I I am interested in in this idea that the master builder role could be something completely different than than either the way Merriam-Webster has described it or the way that KP Reddy is thinking about it.
Speaker 2:So can we fairly say that KP? His thought about the question might be dated and he needs to rethink it in a future way.
Speaker 1:Since he is not in the room to defend himself, then I'm going to say, yes, we can, absolutely, excellent, excellent, yeah, well, I, I you know. To your point again. I brought up the fact that there are many in the profession that would.
Speaker 1:that would start with a statement and you know if, if you go to his post, um, you know there are a number of comments, uh, under his post that that sort of agree with. But one of the things that I would say I say this to my students, I say this to two firms that I consult or have consulted with is you know, some of these things, it's just the ship has sailed right.
Speaker 1:Are you going to be Leonardo da Vinci or are you going to be the architect who was also on site directing the masons as the cathedral was being built? The answer is no. There's not a scenario where that romanticized ideal of master builder if that's the one that you had in your head there's not a scenario where that's going to be a thing. Are you driving the 3D printer to 3D print the cathedral, or something like that? I don't know, but I think more likely what you just the scenario that you just laid out is that's more likely a future facing scenario than what some folks have in their mind as, oh, architects need to take master builder back.
Speaker 2:Well, they definitely need to do something, because that's all I'm going to say about that. They definitely need to reinvent themselves, and that's what I'm trying to do with foresight. I'm not. I'm not selling it. I'm just saying that we have a responsibility to be more responsible for the built environment, and, whether it's becoming a master builder or better designer or data librarian for buildings, we definitely need to do something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and I think that's the thread of a theme that runs through a lot of these discussions that we have is, you know, here we are right. As you look into the future, whatever the technology is that we're talking about, whatever the use cases or the business models that we're talking about, things are changing, right, and they're always changing, but they're accelerating now, you know, at a pace that's more rapid than it ever has been before, and so the idea that you're going to hang on to the way that it always was, that's the losing proposition. So I think you're exactly right.
Speaker 1:It's not just architects, it's engineers, it's contractors, it's other in the built environment. But you're right, we've got to rethink, we've got to do some things differently and reimagine what some of these roles really are.
Speaker 2:Right, and I'm sure you've heard the expression, no one has gotten fired for buying IBM. Right one has gotten fired for buying IBM, right, so is the client going to get going to hire?
Speaker 1:an architect as a master builder, because they're not IBM, well, I, I, well, so that's also, that's also a great point, right? Because, yeah, when we, when we think about the value of an architect and i- I uh, I speak and and consult on the idea of commoditization and sure and um and decommoditization and one of the fallacies that a lot of people and again, this isn't just architects, but since you know, that's often my audience.
Speaker 1:um, one mistake a lot of people think is that we actually define the value proposition right. And if the client looks at our value proposition and says, yeah, I don't, I don't see it, I don't see the value there, then that, in fact, is not right. They get to decide what's value and what's not value. And so, as much as we'd like to take the reins and need to take the reins at the end of the day and we also focus on this in our incubator at KP Redico Our incubator is focused squarely on customer. You know, we call it customer discovery, focused squarely on customer. You know, we call it customer discovery. Architects would maybe call it client discovery. But you know, a big part of customer discovery is understanding what the customers actually value, whether it's what we said or not, right? You know, if we say this is what the value is and nobody agrees, guess what? We're the ones that are wrong.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right. If somehow you have jumped into this conversation right at the very end. I don't know how you did that. You hit fast forward all the way through.
Speaker 1:I am here today on KP Unpacked with Sig Rubel F-A-I-A. Got to go back to the beginning and hear the explanation of F-A-I-A. We have been unpacking one of KP Reddy's LinkedIn posts and if you aren't following KP on LinkedIn, you should be. He posts several times a day Great insights around the built environment, around the AEC world. They're often meant to be pot stirring. I think KP would agree with that. They are often meant to push the envelope, and I don't think this one is any different. It goes like this I'm not an architect, but why did they lose the master builder position and why have they never taken it back?
Speaker 1:Zig and I have spent the last 45 minutes unpacking this. I hope you have enjoyed this conversation. Zig will be back. We may unpack another one of KP's posts. We may continue this conversation. I don't know, but you're going to see more and more guests like Zig here on KP Unpacked so that we can get different perspectives from all around the built environment on some of these things that KP's talking about. So, zig, thank you very much for joining me for this conversation today. It was fascinating. You brought a great perspective from a lot of experience in the architecture world, a lot of experience from the profession, and I appreciate you sharing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be back.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Thanks. We'll get another one lined up here and maybe we'll just continue this one because there's still a lot to unpack here. So thanks for that. Sure, all right, and thanks to all of you out there for listening or watching whichever version of KP Unpacked that you're consuming right now. We appreciate you. Thank you for following us and following along here, and we'll be back again next week with another KP Unpacked. The question will be will it be me and KP, or will it be me and somebody else? Somebody is going to unpack one of KP's posts here. So, thank you, we'll be back again next week. Until then, take care, be safe and we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.