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KP Unpacked
KP Unpacked explores the biggest ideas in AEC, AI, and innovation—unpacking the trends, technology, discussions, and strategies shaping the built environment and beyond.
KP Unpacked
Why AEC Is Failing (And Who Can Fix It)
In this special episode of KP Unpacked, the number podcast in AEC, Jeff Echols sits down with Hope Alexander, senior advisor at KP Reddy Co., to spotlight the one voice often missing in AEC innovation: the owner.
From her days helping grow a startup into a 2,000-person firm (later acquired by AECOM) to building BIM with Frank Gehry, Hope’s career has centered around understanding what owners actually need—and why the AEC industry keeps missing the mark.
You’ll hear about:
- Why owners are the most important (and overlooked) force in AEC innovation
- The hard truths behind BIM adoption and why owners hesitated
- How Hope and KP plan to fix that with the Integrated Owners Forum
- What research is uncovering about industry gaps—and what’s next
- A hot take on AI, decision fatigue, and the leadership vacuum in large capital projects
If you’re in AEC, emerging tech, or real estate, this is a must-listen. Because if you’re not talking to owners, you’re missing half the story.
Ignite what's next
We're launching something new... It’s called Catalyst.
It’s a space for AEC forward-thinkers are reimagining what’s next. This is where the top minds in the industry are sharing ideas, leading change, and pushing the future of AEC forward.
Sounds like you? Join the waitlist at https://kpreddy.co/
Check out one of our Catalyst conversation starters, AEC Needs More High-Agency Thinkers
Hope to see you there!
All right, welcome back to KP Unpacked. This is where the biggest ideas in AEC, in AI, in innovation collide all in one podcast. It's powered by KP Redico and this podcast breaks down the trends, the technology, the discussions and the strategies that are shaping the built environment and beyond. My name is Jeff Eccles. I head up the Mastermind program and the startup incubator for KP Ready Co, and I also host this podcast. If you're a regular listener maybe it's your first time Maybe you watch it on YouTube or maybe you listen to the audio version only, but you're probably used to seeing me, used to hearing my voice. Many times I am joined by KP Reddy, our CEO and founder. If you're looking at the screen right now, you're going. That's not KP and it is not.
Speaker 1:I am joined today by Hope Alexander. She is a senior advisor here at KP Reddy Co, and this is part of a special series that I'm doing with our entire research team. We've launched a new project. I think it's really interesting, I think it's really valuable and I wanted to talk with each member of our research team to see what their background is, what they're bringing to the research, what their research is about, what they hope to find out, and then the importance of it, what you should know you, the listener, should know about what we're doing here at KP Ready Co. So I'm not joined by KP today Many times, in fact, later today, you know, as we record this, here's a little inside baseball for you. Later today I will be joined by KP Redding. We will unpack one of his LinkedIn posts, which is how this podcast started. But today, hope Alexander and I are going to talk about the research that she and the rest of the research team are doing. So, hope, first of all, welcome, I'm glad you're here. Thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Jeff. I'm very excited to be here. As you say, it'll be the most fun all day.
Speaker 1:The most fun all day, other than the foot massage that you have scheduled for this afternoon.
Speaker 2:That would be a fact.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll give you that one. That's fair enough. I'll give you that one, that one's that's fair enough. I don't, I don't know that, uh, um, you know, sitting here and talking with me can compete with a, uh, with a foot massage. So I'll give you that one. But we're going to, we're going to make it fun, we're going to have a good time.
Speaker 1:Hope and I, um, we met almost a year ago, I think at this point, uh, in Chicago, at a, uh, um, one day mastermind event in Chicago. We've gotten to know each other a bit over the past year or so and we're kindred souls. We come from the AEC world, specifically the AE world mainly, and we both have some business development background, some marketing background, and I really appreciate the fact that Hope brings the perspective of her clients, which I'm going to ask her to talk about here in a second. But I appreciate the fact that Hope is very concerned with and brings the perspective of her clients to everything that we do here at KP ReadyCo. So, hope, tell us a little bit about your background. You know, I didn't I let a little bit of the cat out of the bag, just, you know, furry piece of the tail. Maybe Fill us in on your background. How did you get to this point? What's your? Where did you come from, where did you work, who'd you work with and how'd you get to here?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, I started. I've really been around a long time, to be honest. I started in the real estate development industry. I was in with both Trammell Crow, big national real estate developer, as well as the one local here to Chicago called the Alter Group. So I was in both of those arenas and development real estate development for the greater part of maybe 10 years. And then I met some guys who were starting a design build firm, and Grant McCullough and Frank Cavalier. They came to call on me at Trammell Crow and they were starting a design build firm. They wanted to call it McClure the combination of their two names and lo and behold they. They. They wanted to to call, like Trammell Crow, to bring a bring business to them to do design build work for Trammell Crow, and I ended up joining them. I said you guys are way too fun and so this is the route I want and consequently I joined them.
Speaker 2:We were maybe four or five people when I joined and we became several thousand people and then we were purchased by AECOM and we were bought by AECOM in 2005. So we were again in market in the. It was 1989. The market had tanked in 87. As you know, when the market tanks as hard as it is, it's also a great opportunity for a lot of people and consequently we asked people to come, all the AE firms and the construction companies around the Chicago area that were laying off. We said you can come join us and bring work with you, and so we ended up designing silos of work. So we had aviation and aerospace, we had food and beverage, we had pharmaceutical. At the time, printing and publishing was a huge market. We had printing and publishing, we had commercial, which included historic restoration, and the rest is history. So we were bought by AECOM in 2005. And we remained there for a few years.
Speaker 2:But, quite honestly, it was difficult to go from an entrepreneurial environment to AECOM and AECOM at that stage was just in the process of buying DMJM. They bought Daniel Mann, johnson and Mendenhall, they bought Earth Tech. I mean, they were buying all of these companies, both A&E and construction around the United States. And pretty soon it was just for me and for those of us that had started at McLear it was like moving an elephant. We were this, we were out of fish, out of water. Maclear and I went off and he started to work with different venture capital companies that bought private equity firms and so forth that bought architecture, engineering and construction firms and I would go in and help turn the sales around or help enhance sales. And so, as a result, I was involved and have been involved in the business development side of A&E, construction management, design, build material handling and logistics, and also innovation and emerging technology. So how I got here was and in the companies I've worked for just the last few years I've been maybe 10 years in the pharmaceutical side. So I was with Burns and McDonald for the last two years helping them start up a life science and pharmaceutical group and then, previous to that, b, e and K building group out of Raleigh, durham. So and they are a construction management company that really it's big in the pharmaceutical and life sciences business as well as aerospace and some other markets. So those are the last couple.
Speaker 2:But in 2009, my friend, kp Reddy, called me and said I got a call from the architect, frank Gehry in Los Angeles. In Los Angeles and he is hoping to start a company called Gary Technologies and it's going to be around building information modeling and I was like what, what's that? And he said you and I are going to go there and I'm going to help him develop this concept and you're going to sell it. So, jeff, to answer your question how I got here and kind of where we're going with KP ReadyCo is that we did. We built this company. We had many, many unbelievably talented, smart people with us. So don't get me wrong, but we did create this company, gary Technologies. It was the very first time I had ever heard of cloud. We were using cloud. I was like what? But the bottom line is it was a relatively easy sell in the sense that all the clients were fascinated with the idea of doing 3D and 4D and 5D design and estimating and scheduling.
Speaker 2:But what happened is that once they got and they loved it, once they worked with it, they loved it. But they were constantly asking us well, who's going to pay for this? I mean, how do we incorporate the costs of this into? And they were kind of dipping their toe in the deep end of the swimming pool, if you know what I mean in terms of use of it.
Speaker 2:And so this time, when I recently July of 24, retired from, semi-retired from Burns and Mack, and KP said you know, we're going to do this again. You're going to come work with me again because we've had so much fun and so much success. You're going to come work with me again because we've had so much fun and so much success. And so I said, well, the one thing that we really need to do, as you know is and he agreed is we've got to incorporate owners. We cannot go off and create something without the owner input and without the owners advising us, because they're the ones that are going to have to use it. And that's where that's kind of the long story of how we ended up, how I ended up here with KP and how we began to formulate this integrated owner's forum is what we're calling it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so let me ask you this question. Let me go back to something you said a minute ago. You were talking about when you were at Gary Technologies and, for those that may not be familiar with, gary Technologies eventually purchased by Trimble right, you mentioned that, as you're developing the building information modeling, the 3D to 4D to 5D, et cetera, clients were fascinated, but who's going to pay for this? Are those clients that you're talking about, are they owner or are they AE?
Speaker 2:That's a really good point. That's a really good point, jeff. I'll tell you I haven't really talked about this with KP. On the AEC side I was calling on what I called friends of Frank. So at the time it was Zaha Hadid, it was Thomas Mann, it was Norm Foster. It was like the once in a lifetime opportunity to meet some of these people. They were all receptive, they were all interested.
Speaker 2:It was the owner side that I called on that were receptive, but and maybe even more so than the A&E side, to be honest, I think they really wanted to jump in, but it was again it was the cost. So I don't know if I'm answering your question well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I understand what you're saying and you know, as you know, my background is architecture. I spent 20 some odd years in A and AE firms and if any of us from the A side or the AE side are honest, we know that the majority of our, or much of our I think this is maybe changing a little bit, but much of our tech adoption is driven by the owner's request. Yes, so that makes sense to me. Right, it's the owners that are saying, hey, this is intriguing, but who's going to pay for this? So we fast forward to today, integrated owners forum, and I think everybody knows this. I think I imagine that everybody that listens to this podcast or watches the YouTube version of this, I imagine everybody is well-educated in the AEC world. So they understand that when we're talking about the owners, we're talking about the building owners, we're talking about the clients, et cetera. Talking about the owners, we're talking about the building owners, we're talking about the clients, et cetera. And they also understand the fact that when you're in business development as you have been, for you know the vast majority of your career you're you're on the A side or the E side or the C side or whatever, but but you're the conduit really, especially the beginning conduit to the owner side, which is a very unique position to be in in the industry.
Speaker 1:And so, when I look across the table at our research team, we've got Ted that comes from a building product manufacturer background, We've got David who comes from the construction background, and Frank that comes from a building product manufacturer background, We've got David who comes from the construction background and Frank that comes from the engineering background, and Zig is coming from architecture and you're coming, yes, from the AE side, but really the conduit to the owner side, which is obviously a really great segue to the integrated owners forum. You said something a minute ago about understanding the needs for the owner. So a lot of the research that's going to happen is around the problems, the needs, the desires, the value proposition or the value perception, maybe, of the owners, or the value perception, maybe, of the owners. So what, what is the work that that you're hoping to do as part of this research team? As we look at, you know, let's towards the end of 2025 and into 26.
Speaker 2:Sure, well, to begin with, in order to work with these clients, you really did have to understand their business and, as you know, jeff, every client thinks that their projects are unique and special, and you know to a great extent they are, I mean. But you have to understand how they think. You have to understand that business. So, as a result, as we begin to look at ways to enhance the design and construction industry, we're going to have to also understand how those unique, how they differentiate between each of the industries I really think that's going to be critical to this. So the aviation and aerospace, or the guys that are building airports and that are building heavy maintenance facilities, are going to have different requirements than somebody who's building a hospital or somebody who's building a cell and gene therapy facility. I mean, they're vastly different. And so what I'm hoping to get out of this is maybe I don't know if we can do this, but I'm hoping that we can begin to standardize some of the front end data collection, decision making. We can expedite some of that, that some of the technology that we're looking at and methodologies that we're looking at can help these owners, because, you know, there's so much to so many decisions to to make at the beginning of a project number one and number two.
Speaker 2:As you and I both know, there's very few people left anymore who are good big project managers who can actually manage and coordinate all of this information. And the owner? They don't. They're even worse, they don't have the capabilities in-house either. So we are. I mean the big labor shortage, brain power shortage right now on this in this business is huge. Aspect of what's driving my desire to help is getting things organized, getting things standardized, getting help for that centroid. You know project manager who's going to have to work, you know conduct the orchestra and it's going to be tough, it's not easy and feel that we're meeting all of the individual client requirements. You know all those special, unique things about their projects and they're responsible to most of these guys, are responsible to their boards and you know these are just human beings who are on the line for sometimes billions of dollars worth of work. I mean that's a little bit of pressure there.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit. It's a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think about it all the time and I feel I just want to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you talked about this before and again. You and I both have business development backgrounds, so we understand this. I'm not sure that everybody understands this, but in order to be the best architect, the best engineer, the best contractor, to have the best business, to be the best business development person, you do have to understand your client's business, maybe even better than they do. Right, that's what I see when I look out across the landscape. I look at you and I know you know the business of your clients, you know your your owners that you worked with in the past.
Speaker 1:You know their business as well or better than they do.
Speaker 1:You you, you understand it, you can predict you, you can see the trends, right, and so that's a necessity and I and I think that's that's to me, that's one of the important things about this research work is is understanding that, and then you know the way that I have always viewed owners or clients, depending on what you call them, depending on your perspective, from your little role in the industry. There's a spectrum, right, and I say I don't mean this to be demeaning in any way, but I say there's a spectrum between sophisticated and not sophisticated clients, so or not sophisticated and sophisticated. So maybe you're hiring someone to design your dream home and you've never worked with an architect or an engineer, you've never gone through a construction process. You don't, you don't know what, you don't know. Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1:You're in the camp of the unsophisticated client, right, you're not a part of this, you haven't been a part of this process. You don't know the process. Then you get to the other end of the spectrum and you've got a college, university, healthcare system, um, uh, pharmaceutical. You know all those that you named off. Right, they're sophisticated, they've been through this process, they go through this process, they have teams, etc. And you said something a minute ago that I think is really important that even at the sophisticated end of the spectrum there's still gaps.
Speaker 2:Right as much as those owners know there's still gaps is to standardize tasks, standardize methodologies, standardize information, data gathering. You know everything that we're doing, so that whether you are a young person kind of trying to move up the ladder in the global engineering group of your company, or whether you're a very sophisticated owner, you know we at least have some means. And then how we proceed is in what kind of innovation we use is that's yet to be determined. But, yeah, but I think, I think that bridging the gap is important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you know this is something.
Speaker 1:So you know I said this in the beginning and you know this, but I run our mastermind program and so I, you know, the better part of my week is spent with coaching innovation leaders, construction technology leaders from all across.
Speaker 1:I used to say North America, but we spread over to Europe now, so all across, you know at least half the globe. We literally have the innovation leaders, the AEC world in our mastermind groups, and and so I I sit with them, meeting after meeting after meeting, and hear what they're doing on their side, Right, and a lot, of, a lot of that has to do with owner needs and things, but of course they're focused on their organization, innovating inside their organization, serving their clients better, et cetera. And of course, much of the conversation there has to do with data and standardization and these things that you're saying. So I'll be curious to see what the research reflects after you know, as I've said over and over and you've mentioned, we've got a whole team of people that are going to be bringing their own perspective or they're going to come to this research looking through their own lens, just like you will, from the owner, ted will from the building product manufacturer, et cetera. So I'll be. I'll be curious to see what what comes out of it.
Speaker 2:Well, I was going to mention the other thing, jeff. On the owner's side, what we're trying to do is get a diversity of industries, because they all want to share. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you said that earlier. I mean that's a great point, right. There are many specialists out there. You know there are firms out there I'm thinking from the design and construction side but there are many firms out there that specialize in XYZ. Maybe it is aviation. If you're AECOM and you've assimilated, you know like three quarters of the AEC industry, you've got lots of verticals. But there are plenty. I'm based here in Indianapolis, I'm just two hours away from you in Chicago, and here in Indianapolis we have lots of people, lots of firms that specialize in K-12. We have healthcare specialists, library specialists just kind of off the top of my head, what some of the firms here specialize in. They are specialists and they have a view of libraries or whatever that is, whatever their vertical is, whatever their project type is, and maybe they've got multiples.
Speaker 1:Um, back in the day when I was in Chicago, I uh, I started out working at Epstein, oh I didn't know that I love those guys.
Speaker 1:So small. World right Um, and world right um, and. And so we, we had um specialties in museums and also in distribution plants, which was, you know, sort of schizophrenic in a way. But you know that was that, was it right? Here's a vertical, there's a vertical project type, project type. We've got a view into this type of owner and a view into that type of owner. But there's lots, you know, you, you rattled off earlier aviation and pharmaceutical and others, and I, I think you're exactly right. It's it's going to take, it's going to be a big task. It's like how do, how do I look at all of these verticals? And I'm sure there's going to be a scorecard or something right. We, we're not going to be looking at at custom residential, maybe single family, but maybe we're looking at data centers or something like that. How do we, how do we parse all of this information? But but I think your, your point is is right on and it highlights the complexity of the task at hand.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, and these, each of these verticals is evolving. You know, when you mentioned data centers. Mission Critical was one of our original silos back in the day from a clear, but they were data centers, jeff. They were mostly bank data centers. You know, we just didn't have and that evolved to cloud computing and onward. But yeah, and some of those silos went away. Printing and publishing kind of went away.
Speaker 1:Not, not completely A lot, yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, it's, it's it's a continual and speedy evolution. Many times, yeah Right. So as as you, as you think about the um, as you think about the task at hand, as you think about this research, I equate it. I equate what you all are doing and will be doing to what we do in our incubator, which is, in the incubator, we focus on early stage, usually pre-revenue startups, and we focus very heavily, if not solely, on customer discovery. So it's having these conversations you know, what's the problem?
Speaker 1:What's the solution problem what would? What would these people pay for? What would they value, et cetera? So as, as you start to think about the research at hand, what's that methodology from from your point of view and from your work? What's that methodology look like? What are you? What does that mean in your day-to-day in terms of finding out what these owners need and value, et cetera?
Speaker 2:Well, we are starting out initially, as you know, kicking off on the 20th of May at our mastermind meetup with a whole group of owners across the board, different industries, who are coming together to begin that conversation, and KP is going to be mediating that.
Speaker 2:We're going to be asking a bunch of questions, they're going to be voicing concerns and hopefully beginning to funnel some of that into commonalities, if you will, common problems and so forth.
Speaker 2:So we've got the others, other research colleagues of mine, all you know and of course, we have AI taking notes and keeping track of everything as we begin to funnel it into some data that we can begin to siphon through. So it's going to be it's really starting with the conversation and this group of people these are all former clients of mine who are predominantly CapEx or global engineering Yep. So they deal with both the design and construction side, and most of them are large project people. So they've been dealing with all aspects, very large project teams, and they seem to have all, as I mentioned earlier, the same problems lack of lack of labor, lack of experience, lack of you know, Lack of experience, lack of you know. And then the other aspect of this, Jeff, is that the a lot of these big clients are not able to find enough firms. The AEC firms don't have the experience, don't have, and how to automate that and how, to you know, take the risk off the owner's table is is really going to be critical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's not uh lost in me. I know it's not lost on you either that you know as quickly as things are evolving for the owner, if they, if they are data center or their health care or whatever they are as quickly as things are evolving for them. It's also evolving that quickly on the design and construction and the the building material side as well. So it's, it's everybody, it's all hands on deck at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah right and and you, you, just you just brought it up and thank you for bringing it up, but we will be our next one day Um mastermind event will be in Atlanta on May 20th. Um, that's, that's an opportunity for people to uh get a peek at what the integrated owners forum is, to get a peek at, um, what our mastermind program is, and participate in those those conversations on that day in Atlanta. It's a Tuesday, I believe, if I'm remembering the calendar correctly. Um and as, and and I also realize right hope, and I've been talking, we've been mentioning a lot of things. We've talked about mastermind groups, we talk about incubators, we talk about integrated owners forum, the one day mastermind event. Don't worry about any of that. Just go down to the show notes below.
Speaker 1:Whether you're looking, watching this on YouTube or listening to this on on one of the podcast platforms, our production team puts the links to all of these things that we talk about. You know things that need links. They're down below, so just go down there and click on it. And then also, I would say that if you have questions about what we're talking about, you know when I'm, when I'm recording with KP, I say hey, you need to follow KP ready on on LinkedIn. So the letter K, the letter P ready. You can't connect with him he's maxed out his LinkedIn connections but you can follow him, hope and I.
Speaker 1:We have lots of friends, but we're not KP ready. So we're a little bit more accessible on LinkedIn. Dm us or send us a connection request on LinkedIn and we'll help you find things as well. We'll point you in the right direction. But reach out to one of us, go down to the show notes, find the links and you'll go to the landing pages that are appropriate for the things that we're talking about. So don't worry about taking notes or anything right now. All right, hope, I've done this with everybody I'm doing this with the entire research team.
Speaker 1:I'm going to put you on the spot, Okay, and I'm going to test you, because we're going to come back in a couple of months or so and we're going to record a follow-up episode. So my question right now is what's a hot take? What do you think is? Just, it could be just one thing, what do you think is going to come out of this research? And then we'll come back in a couple of months or whatever, and I'll say hey hope you know. When we were recording this, you said you thought this is what was going to, what was going to happen, what we're going to learn, et cetera. How's that going? So what's a hot take that you have?
Speaker 2:Well, I think you're right, there's short-term and long-term, but I think in the short-term, from my owner's standpoint, I think they are going to develop a level of comfort with changing times, with the potential of AI introductions, with new innovation. I really do think that they're going to begin to see that they're not alone, that this is coming, and I think they're going to be more willing to embrace it.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that and, you know, I also think that's kind of a softball, if I might, because I think you set that up so that when we come back in two months and record the next one, you're going to be like. You're going to be like, see, he told you so. Right, right, right, all right, fair enough, that's fair enough. One, one final angle for this conversation, I think, and that is we have people watching and listening to this episode at some point in the future, from when we're recording it now. What is the most important thing for them to understand or take away from this conversation and to watch out for, as the KP ReadyCo research team does their work and the Integrated Owners Forum unfolds concurrently, what's, what's the thing that jane smith, the listener, right now needs, should, should be paying attention to and should be taking away from this conversation well, I I genuinely believe that everyone should have a seat at the table.
Speaker 2:everybody who's in this industry needs a seat at the table and in order to do all the things that we talked about, they'll develop a level of comfort, begin to enhance the way we design and engineer and implement projects. You have to have a seat at the table. Your input is going to be critical and your understanding is going to be critical. So, whatever you are your owners or AEC executives or emerging tech companies you all need to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's a great point and it also, that point really reinforces the, I think, the quality of the research team that we've been able to pull together right, everybody, every part. Usually I call it the circular economy. I understand that that may not technically be accurate Using that term may not technically be accurate, but we have represented in our research team the design side, the material side, the construction side, the operation side, everything that's necessary to design, to build, to operate built environment where people live, work, play, worship, whatever it is that they do. And so I agree, everybody needs a seat at the table and I'm really happy about the fact that our research team represents a lens of everybody having a seat at the table and that's how the research will be conducted.
Speaker 1:So I love that. I love that we have that alignment. Hope thanks a lot for joining me for this and sitting down with me and you know, I hope you have a great foot massage and I agree that that will be better.
Speaker 2:But thanks for inviting me, Jeff.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it. Yeah, I'll give you that That'll be better than this, but hopefully this wasn't too painful. I appreciate it. Yeah, I'll give you that That'll be better than this, but hopefully this wasn't too painful. It was good, good, good. I'm glad.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:It's been a great conversation. We'll be back in a couple of months and I'll test your theory. Okay, and also for those that are listening and you by now, if you've heard all of these interviews, you've heard me say this, but I'm going to have a second episode with each of our researchers and then at some point we're also going to pull together. We call it a panel discussion, but that sounds very stodgy to me. We're going to pull everybody together in the same room and we're going to kick it all around and we're going to see what we're learning. We're going to hear how the research is going, what's coming out of it and what could turn into a pretty raucous discussion, but we'll see how it goes. But I think that'll be a lot of fun is getting the team together and say, okay, where are we right, what's the progress and what are we learning here. So, as you're listening, some things to look forward to in the future. And, as always, you know we've got the other versions of of uh the.
Speaker 1:KP uh, kp unpacked podcast as well KP and I unpacking his LinkedIn post, frank Lazaro, another one of my teammates, and I unpacking AI for AEC and um, some of our mastermind members and speakers and things as well. So thank you for joining us. This is KP Unpacked. It is where the biggest ideas in AEC and AI and innovation all collide in one podcast. It's powered by KP ReadyCo. This is where we break down the trends, the technology, the discussions and the strategies that are shaping where you live and where you work and where you play, and where you live and where you work and where you play and where you worship and where you eat and all of those things in the built environment. So thanks for joining us. We'll be back again next week and hope to see you, or hope you see us and hear us again next week. Thanks everybody, thanks, hope, thanks.