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What if the firms that win the next decade aren't the ones with the best AI tools, but the ones that invested in people who know how to keep learning?
In this September takeover episode of KP Unpacked, guest host Tyler Sellhorn sits down with Nora Swanson, Principal at Trinity JBNB and one of Crain's Notable Women in Tech, ahead of her appearance at AEC Summit on October 19th at The Weylin in Brooklyn. Nora leads her firm's innovation, knowledge, and learning platforms, including AI tools built in-house. Her take: technology is increasingly accessible, anyone can build right now, and that means the real differentiator is no longer which tools you use. It's how quickly your organization can learn, adapt, and apply what it knows.
The conversation covers why "yet" and "imagine if" are the two most important words in a growth mindset culture, how Trinity JBNB is embedding AI as infrastructure (not just a resource or a coworker), what it means to redefine expertise when AI handles production, and why this moment gives engineers and builders the chance to focus on the problems that actually matter. The energy crisis. The housing crisis. Carbon reduction. These are the big issues that get unlocked when the small stuff gets automated.
Key questions answered:
What is the most important thing firms should be investing in that isn't technology?
Why are curiosity, adaptability and learning becoming more valuable than software skills?
What are the three phases of AI evolution: resource, coworker, and embedded infrastructure?
How is Trinity JBNB using AI to automatically update Revit models and notify engineers?
What does "yet" have to do with building a growth mindset inside an engineering firm?
Who is Carol Dweck and what is the Power of Yet?
Why does context matter as much as technical expertise right now?
How is the definition of team expanding in AEC?
What does it mean to define a profession by purpose rather than production?
How do you keep humans in the loop when AI is embedded in workflows?
Why are the big engineering challenges more accessible now than ever before?
What does reteaming with agents actually look like in practice?
If you're leading innovation at an AEC firm wondering where to focus beyond the technology, a young engineer trying to figure out what skills will matter most in five years, or just curious what AI as embedded infrastructure actually looks like in a real engineering workflow, this episode will show you why the firms that invest in people right now will be the ones that win.
Listen now.
Catch Nora live at AEC Summit on October 19th at The Weylin in Brooklyn.
Our guest today is Nora Swanson. Nora has spent over 20 years in 80s working where technology meets the people who use it. As a principal at Trinity JBNB, she leads the firm's innovation, knowledge, and learning platforms, including its AI tools they've built in-house. She's a Villanova-trained mechanical engineer and a licensed professional engineer. And Crane's named her one of its notable women in tech. Nora, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you, Tyler.
SPEAKER_00
Very happy to be here. Very excited about this conversation.
SPEAKER_01
Of course, thank you for your time here on the podcast and your upcoming appearance at the AEC Summit on October 19 at the Whalen in Brooklyn. Regular listeners might be wondering where are KP and Nick are? I'm here for the month of September interviewing each of our AEC Summit speakers about the work behind their session. Brief conversations, zero fluff. Watch them here, then grab your seat at AECSummit.co before the room fills up. Of course, if you're missing KP and Nick, they will be there in Brooklyn too.
Now, Nora, we're curious, what's the most important thing firms should be investing in right now that isn't technology?
SPEAKER_00
I mean, obviously, technology is top of mind for everyone right now. It's doing some impressive things, and it's obviously very important and can be very impactful. But if I really think about the bigger and biggest opportunity in front of us, it's investing in people, it's investing in human connections, knowledge, context. It's, you know, the tech is increasingly accessible. Anyone can build right now. Like it's kind of a beautiful point in time that we're in. But the real differentiator is going to be how quickly organizations can learn, adapt, apply what they know. And I kind of want to, I kind of want to pull on my own threads a little bit with that, if you don't mind, Tyler. Go right ahead. But you know, one thing that we're investing heavily in, and that I think is important for others to consider investing in, is helping people become more adaptable and resilient, right? And as humans, we are historically uh historically resilient species, right? We just need to make sure that we're tapping into that at that at this current point in time. The pace of change, as we all have felt, really isn't slowing down. And the tools that we use today won't be the tools that we use in five years. Frankly, they're not going to be the tools that we use maybe in three months. So the most valuable people, or the the thing that we are going to find value in, are going to be the people who don't necessarily master a specific piece of software or specific tool. It's going to be the people who we invest in teaching how to and nurturing how to stay curious, how to keep learning, how to be unafraid to evolve. I think really the skill of learning, the skill of curiosity, the skill of adaptability are going to become more important than any software-based kind of like tactical skill that we learn.
SPEAKER_01
Plus one to embracing curiosity. Yeah. I know for myself, right? We were sharing before we started recording that I am not an AEC industry native, right? I am an immigrant, right, to this industry. And I think it's interesting just how you know, okay, listeners of the KP Unpacked podcast, I listened to the KP Unpacked podcast before I joined Zero RFI. So it's one of those deals where I am hearing my experience rhyming with yours from the industry, right? It's that this idea that technologies are going to change, which software we're going to log into might be different from one firm to the next, or from one year to the next at the same firm. But I what is going to be persistent across all of those experiences is the value that comes from a growth mindset around these things. And I guess maybe I'm curious, like, even just the idea that that's how we should focus our conversation, what's prompting you to like emphasize the non-technical or less you know uh hard skill type type behaviors versus the soft skill of curiosity and knowledge and adaptability and those sorts of things. What's prompting you in that direction?
SPEAKER_00
I think it's really that things are changing. We we don't know what the future is going to hold, right? I think, you know, none of us predicted a couple of years ago that we would end up where we are today in relation to the technology. So you can only project that out that our curve is going to continue to go up and we're really going into the unknown. And we can prepare for the unknown by building those skills in order to be able to take what we what may or may not come at us. So I think that, you know, making sure that everyone is prepared, you know, hopefully excited, you know, maybe going in a little bit with a little bit of trepidation, but at least prepared with skills to, you know, handle and take on whatever may come next, because we don't quite know what that is.
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so we let off the conversation with your experiences at Trinity JBNB as someone who is like leading the technology stuff. And just to timestamp our conversation a bit is that you know, we're we're in 2026, but it's it's not that long ago that like Chat GPT like like kind of became this this phenomenon that like we have this, you know, you you're describing a a very recent kind of scenario that we find ourselves in, that LLMs are impacting our work even in the AEC industry after being in the market for less than five years. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, and I think that this idea that you know change is the the the persistent constant is the persistent you know input for us. And I think that it's worth staying on this for a moment. And I guess maybe I want to invite you to share maybe an example from your work at Trinity JBNB to be, you know, like give us an a scenario where it's like, oh, well, this person or this project or these people at at this you know you know endpoints of our work, like really were demonstrating what it is to be a learner first and then a practitioner second.
Sure. So you know, and I'm going to pull on a memory I have of someone who within the past couple months really surprised me in that it was a person who traditionally, right? Traditionally engineers have a little struggle with change, where often, you know, a very kind of like a black and white thinking population. But through the the work that we're trying to do in building an adaptable and resilient organization, we're really trying to get people to tack on to their thought processes, like imagine if something did something, or you know what, I see the potential. This isn't doing this yet. I think imagine if and yet are very important words. And so, you know, this particular person, we had rolled out a solution. I actually don't even remember which one at this point in time, but you know, they were like, oh, you know, it doesn't quite do this. And I I wish it did, but you know, it's gonna, it's gonna do this. It just doesn't do this yet. And I was like, oh, our work is working, you know, that kind of soft skill building and work is is having an impact. And so I think the ability for people to see the potential, to vocalize the potential, to kind of allay potential frustrations that they might have had in the past by tacking on those growth mindset words is you know very important. And we're starting to to see it take root within the context of Trinity JBB.
SPEAKER_01
It's so cool to hear you rhyming with with my experiences. Like you're you're saying the magic words of Carol Dweck, right? You know, shout out because if if you are I don't know Carol Dweck. Okay. Oh okay. So Carol Dweck is a Stanford education researcher. Uh and like literally the the title of her TED talk is The Power of Yet. Hey, oh, I'm gonna have to listen to that one. Oh, uh it's it's definitely worth a listen. And I will include that in the show notes for listeners that are also hearing their ears perk up with the power of yet. And that other phrase that you said, imagine if, right? And I think that that is the kind of ideas that we want lean into in a moment of change, in a moment of growth, in a moment of it's not like it used to be, right? Is to say, okay, what if, imagine if I it doesn't do this yet, right? It has this this hopeful kind of framing to things to say, all right, I know that this is possible. Yeah, if I if I push on this a little bit, I might build some momentum towards this whole other branch of business.
SPEAKER_00
Or it kind of establishes this like light at the end of the tunnel.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah. And and you know, in an industry where margins are historically thin, you know, there's an opportunity for us to like just get a little bit of space to breathe when we lean into a new way of doing things.
Okay, I want to shift gears just a little bit. And I want us, you know, we're we're already talking like like I used to in a previous career, I was a secondary mathematics teacher, like just trying to hold open the space for for children to learn algebra, right? And you know, I think this is the the same kind of of idea here. I I want to invite us to riff on our theme this year at the AEC summit, right? We're our our theme is teamwork, right? Yeah project success is a team sport. And I guess maybe when you're thinking about leading innovation uh at an engineering firm, right? What does that mean to you when we say teamwork? Project success is a team sport.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. You know, I I think we are at an inflection point where the definition of team is expanding. And we all know, or maybe you, I mean, you're you're new to the industry, so I'm assuming you're coming to learn that the number of teams, the number of people, the number of consultants it takes to have to build a successful project, to have, you know, this amazing space or building for people is so expansive. You know, it is a very large and collaborative industry. It takes a lot of people to make it work. But now when we think about teams, even internally, you know, we're we're now taking, or we're now thinking about how the technologies of today and hopefully the technologies of tomorrow help to enhance and extend the capabilities of our teams. And by thinking about how technologies, in particular AI, can fit into our team and project organizations, we really need to think about the context that people are bringing in or that people bring to the table and how that can then influence how we build and roll out and deploy technologies. And I think you know, context is one of the things that people also need to invest in, kind of going back to our first uh our initial question of what people need to invest in that's not technology. It really is context and then redefining expertise. And so when we think about teams, we need to think about, you know, the the human capital on our teams, which is completely invaluable. And what does it now mean to be an expert in the firm or an expert in the business unit or an expert in the industry when technology can help and aid production better than it ever has? And I think it gives us the opportunity to define a team, really define our profession based upon purpose rather than production. And so I think you know, it's a point in time where we can really get people excited about engineering, get people excited about building, because we are able to focus more on the big issues at hand. How do we, you know, how do we tackle the energy crisis? How do we make sure that we're building things that are as energy efficient as possible? How do we tackle the housing crisis? How do we better reduce carbon within our buildings? There's all of these big opportunities, these real impactful engineering challenges that I think this point in time allows us to redefine team purpose within the context of our industry.
SPEAKER_01
I think it's interesting to be you know focused on this idea that we aren't we are redefining what expertise means, right? And it's becoming less small. It's becoming bigger. Yes. I can hear you zooming out, I can hear you saying actually there's more joy in the big issues and solving those than making sure that this detail is is has its screw all the way tightened, right? I think there is this opportunity for us to like look at. I mean, you even in the the answer that you gave, right? You zoomed out to like solving the energy crisis, right? And I think that that is something that is it brings me joy that that is where our brains go now that we have less of that like minute detail to have to attend to, right? I guess maybe I'm curious to hear you think broadly about like what it means to have LLMs as teammates, having you know, agentic teammates, right? Like, what does that mean for my expertise, especially with you know for engineers, right? But you know, like I think there's this opportunity for us to start to rethink what teams are when we start thinking about you know agents, you know, and I'm using I'm using the buzzword, uh having agents be a part of our team as well. Sure. What does that mean?
So we think of AI and really agent or solution evolution in in three phases. First phase, which occurred, is AI as a resource, right? You can go to any of your preferred LLM vendors, type in something, get a response back, right? It's a resource. Second is as a coworker, really your personal assistant, you can delegate a task and have it work in parallel with you. I was actually doing that last week. I had five things going along with something that I was personally doing. And it to have that productivity gain personally is just profound and very helpful. But our third phase is really AI as embedded infrastructure, which is what, you know, I think the root of your question was what does that look like when our processes and our teams and our workflows have AI embedded in them? And to give a tangible example of something that we're doing in that regard, is having our project review solution, which is an AI-enabled product that we have, then automatically go back, depending upon what it finds, upon its review, right? Well, we have different levels of threshold upon which this particular workflow can take place that I'm about to describe. But so say our product finds something that, you know, this particular ductwork size needs to get updated. That tool then goes talk, goes talks to our design tool in Revit, automatically makes the update and then just like lets the person who's assigned to that particular project or that particular task know that, hey, I found that this needs to get updated and I updated it. Here it is, you know, just check it to make sure that it's okay. And so that's where we're going. How do we take the solutions that we're building that are generally point in time and connect them across the project lifecycle, and then also keep the teammates and the humans in the loop so that it's really working as if it were a teammate, right? Like if this were done, you know, without the aid of AI, you know, someone would go in, review a drawing, mark something up, would send it to someone else. That person would go ahead and make the updates and then send back to them that it was done. And so we are just, you know, taking the solutions that we have and having them talk along that uh project timeline to really embed that infrastructure and that that AI-enabled workflow for the aid of the team.
SPEAKER_01
Well, I can't imagine a better way for us to conclude, Nora, than to start thinking about reteeming with agents. You know, I also am just celebrating the the idea that I got to name drop Carol Dweck on on a on a KP unpacked. I can't wait to watch this TED Talk. Well, I mean, okay, so yeah, the the the power of yet means that I can understand what you just said, that yeah, the MEPs and the BIMs and the VDCs and the PEs all get together and now we have a building, right? Like and for um for me to understand what all of those acronyms are. So, yes, you imagine if you actually did learn what you needed to learn and to grow into the change that is you know absorbing and reteeming all of what we're doing together uh to build the the society that we want to have, the the assets that we need to like be together and to be doing the things that we want to do together.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, to solve meaningful problems, to improve communities, to advance sustainability, really, I mean, ultimately just to make a positive impact on the world around
Well, come talk more with us about all of these ideas uh on October 19th at the Whalen in Brooklyn. Get your tickets at aecsummit.co. Thank you so much, Nora, for coming to podcast to talk about these ideas today and uh to coming to Brooklyn uh in October. Looking forward to it. Thank you, Tyler. All right. See everyone there. Yeah, see you there.
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